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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Arnaldo » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:30 pm

This is the first time I am going to own a chihuahua (I am 21)

I have been doing lots of research into the Chihuahua breed and came across warnings and differences between hobby breeders, back yard breeders and show breeders.

I placed a deposit on a pup a while ago, yet after my visit I decided not to go ahead with the purchase. So I want to know if I did the right thing or if I just threw my money away.

These are some main points

1. The breeder was very nice and didn?t hesitate to let me see her dogs

2. Both dam and sire were her pets and I could see them

3. All dogs were KC registered

4. Puppies would leave at 12 weeks, after vet checks/ vaccinations with 6 months insurance

These are the worrying points I found

5. She owned 8 chihuahuas, 2 of which had a set of litters

6. She said her Chihuahuas are not taken out for walks (admittedly her garden was very big), except very occasional walks on the beach

7. She didn?t ask much about me

8. I am pretty sure that in one of our conversations her husband said that they sell or put out for adoption some of their dams (and called them ?retired?) after she has had a few litters.

IS THIS NORMAL???! If so, I find it odd

9. She doesn?t show her dogs, but mentioned that 25 yrs ago she showed bull mastiffs (btw she has been breeding for 20yrs)

10. The pups will be vet checked, but she said there will be no written health cert given

What do you think?
Arnaldo
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Ed » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:08 pm

1. +

2. +

3. - HUGE negative, unless you meant to write AKC registered and if so +

4. + This is the best time for pups to leave their mom and most BYB do not bother with vet checks

5. I don't breed Chihuahuas and I have 5. I'm not sure having 8 dogs and 2 litters at the same time is bad.

6. I never take my dogs for walks,,,A Chihuahua gets all the exercise they need running around my a home and yard. You have to consider their very small size against a really big world.


7. This is your red herring. The breeder I bought my dogs from wanted to know LOTS about my family, lifestyles, how long would the puppy be home alone, etc.


8. Another huge negative... these dogs are NOT pets if they are let go after their "useful" days are gone. That's how I got one of my dogs- a "retired" breeder. (but not from the breeder I bought my dogs from) It took almost 6 months for her to learn how to live with people and other adult dogs in a house.

9. This is odd. My breeder showed Chihuahuas for years. She was in her 60's when I met her and not showing at the time. She retired 5 years later but she still calls from time to time and asks for pictures, etc. And she always send me a Christmas card.

10. Not too bad...no written health warranty but she's giving you 6 months insurance.


Final answer: NO you did not throw your money away. You bought yourself a great dog who will love you unconditionally for 10+ years. You may not have a show quality dog, but a Chi is a great, cuddly lap dog pet.
Ed
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Yaron » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:59 pm

1. No big deal

2. Breeding 'pets' is not what you want. You want someone who breeds top quality, health tested PROVEN dogs that are also treasured members of the family

3. No big deal

4. Every breeder should do this

5. Not worrisome in itself

6. Small breeds don't have major exercise requirements, and chis would get enough exercise in a yard

7. BIG red flag. A good breeder would rather keep an entire litter than see it in the wrong hands

8. It's normal to rehome a b*tch after she's been retired so she can get the individual attention it's very difficult to give with multiple dogs

9. NO NO NO NO. I don't care what she showed 25 years ago, 10 years ago or 6 months ago. If she doesn't and never has shown the breed, she doesn't know enough about it to be breeding it, and shouldn't be

10. No health guarantee? What do YOU think? What's your recourse when 6 months down the road your puppy has grade 4 luxating patellas and will need thousands of dollars in surgery, or a heart defect?

I think you were wise not to buy from this woman. She's been churning out dogs for 20 years, and obviously knows what to say to convince the average puppy buyer that she's a good breeder

Contact the breed parent club for breeder referrals
Yaron
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Casidhe » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:13 am

I think the biggest thing was she offered no written health cert . A good breeder does back up her breeding by providing a one or two year guarantee . A good breeder knows their own breed and if all the appropriate health checks are in place they can guarantee the dog .Remember this does not mean nothing can happen ..as there are no guarantees in life but a good breeder is there to help you replace the animal or offer a refund for heredity problems . Remember breeders can not guarantee the dog won't fall and break a leg ,get run over ,get overweight .are poorly behaved . A good breeder will guarantee against temperament problems ..but many problems with temperament are issues with the new owners so can be hard to address . In those cases I took the animal back and accessed it for myself some breeders would just euthanize to get rid of the problem. Your Instinct Was good run don't walk from a breeder who will not guarantee a puppy .
Casidhe
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby uisdean30 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:38 am

Your first 6 points are positive about the breeder or do not give me much alarm.
My red flags went up when she didn't ask about you.
She should check your references, want to know what kind of home you will provide, ask about your family and other pets.


I would require a health guarantee.
You don't mention if she has had the parents health checked.
What genetic problems are common in chihuahuas? Have their hips and elbows been OFA certified? Their ears BAER checked and eyes CERF certified? Any breed that has been as popular as the chi will have extensive research done on genetic issues.

A person can be a conscientious breeder and keep several dogs.
It is good that she is only concentrating on one breed.
Multi-breed places are usually very bad news.
It takes a great deal of time to care for puppies and give them love and individual attention until they reach 12 weeks.
If she were just in it to make money, she would send them off at 8 weeks.
They get more difficult from 6 weeks on, requiring more cleanup and attention.

Does she have references of previous buyers you can contact?

Walks are not essential if there is sufficient exercise in the backyard.


How did she choose the parents? What qualities does she breed for? If it is just small size, that is bad.
How about temperament?

Good for you, being careful to choose from a conscientious breeder! Good luck!
uisdean30
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Fredek » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:20 pm

You where right to decide not to buy from her.

She isn't involved in showing - you did not mention she was a part of the Chihuahua Parent Club or any Chihuahua "clubs" in the area, so i'm guessing she isn't. She isn't performing genetic testing. She isn't offering a genetic health guarantee. Those three facts alone are enough to scream BYB scum.


It doesn't MATTER what she did 20 years ago - a Chihuahua is not a Bullmastiff and she is not CURRENTLY involved in show. If she where a responsible breeder she would be an active shower, she would be performing genetic testing (and YES there ARE tests that Chihuahua's need), she would be offering a genetic guarantee, and she would be VERY interested in your lifestyle and you.
Fredek
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Cynrik » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:22 am

As an ex-breeder of purebred Cornish Rex and nonetheless presently personal and educate Ocicats (and performance shown kinfolk contributors pets too), i will with any success answer your concerns. respected breeders study pedigrees, breed actually healthful cats that are examined for genetic issues first and cleared, assure the kittens to be free of genetic issues, spay/neuter their puppy kittens, keen to take again their kittens/cats in case you are able to't keep them. at the same time as someone facilitates a mixed breed to reproduce they don't do any of the above. how can you try your blend for genetic issues in case you do not even recognize the heritage? how can you assure the healthful (genetics) of those kittens. And are you keen to keep the kittens till you locate houses and spay/neuter earlier they go away? Are you keen to take again an total grown cat 5 yrs later if the owner would not choose it? there is the most important transformations. AND maximum all respected breeders have waiting lists for his or her kittens - they don't "overbreed" their cats. they could enable a lady to really have 2-3 litters earlier she is spayed - and really one clutter a three hundred and sixty 5 days; possibly 2 reckoning on the cat. i have had various unusual mixes that i might want to were curious to work out what they could have had - yet when you consider that I pontificate spay/neuter of non-purebreds, then those cats under no circumstances had even one clutter!
Cynrik
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Corren » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:58 am

OK, I might not be in line with the rest of the pack here.
So to respond in order:

1. Good

2.
Good

3.
Fine

4.
12 weeks - wow, I always get a puppy at 8 weeks - its late .


5.
Fine -

6.
Well, I guess I am biased, but a lot of toy owners I meet dont walk their dogs - I`m not saying I wouldn`t, but the breed doesnt require it.


7.
I would consider it within the context of all other things.
Its a wide spectrum these days - and I understand a breeder wants to place a dog in a forever home, but frankly, some of them have taken this `standard of pet ownership` to a new level of absurdity.
I include some rescues in this as well - I`ve met some real nutcases who claim to be experts in all things k-9 when in reality - the only thing that qualified them for that job was too much spare time and a car.


But yes, I admit I would expect a breeder to ask some basic questions, ie have you owned a dog before, what are you looking for in a dog, where do you live.
So, that is a flag.

8.
That is normal in my experience.
I`m not saying I could do it - but I`m not in the business of breeding dogs.
And make no mistake, it is still a BUSINESS.


9.
Who cares.
I don`t show my dogs either.
I dont consider `show` dobes or GSDs to be breed standard - in fact, MOST ARE SUB STANDARD.
And show breeders sell less than perfect dogs all the time - they are called ``pet quality``.
This show thing is just a beauty pagent, and mostly political.
It has nothing to do with buying a healthy sound dog.
Now, if you are hoping to BUY a show prospect, than yes, you should buy from a breeder that shows.

10.
Again who cares.
I know, the proverbial written health guarantee.
I`ve owned dobes for the last 30 years - and have spent a couple grand buying the BEST dog with a guarantee - she died at 4.5 years of cancer.
I had another (similar lines - but not the same) - died at 3 years.

You could presume I don`t think much of health guarantees -because any that I have signed state that IF the puppy becomes ill - it must be returned to the breeder not for a refund - but another puppy.
And I challenge any breeder who makes posts on this forum to prove me wrong - a 2 year health guarantee is almost worthless - unless the dog is born a train wreck in which case they have no business selling it to you in the first place.

How many people actually `redeem` their guaranteed dog.
You get a puppy, you love it, you have it for a year or two, it gets hip dysplasia - and now, you do NOT get your $1200 back (or $2200 for a dobe») - you return to sender sick dog for a new dog.
They will NOT pay your vet bill for hip surgery and let you keep the dog.
So, people keep their sick dogs and treat them and breeder says sorry.

And any other guarantee I have signed is limited to certain defects - which again, require you return said puppy.
Buying a dog is not like driving a car - after 20K you trade it in.
So, guarantees I have signed are mostly meaningless, more sizzle than steak - and only really useful if your dog dies of a congenital defect that is guaranteed (which is rare if not impossible)

I`m qualifying my comments by stating I have only ever owned GSD`s and dobermans.
And both breeds are known to have many health problems.

I adopted a 4 year old dobe (purebred) from the humane society with absolutely NO idea what his background was, he had no papers, and no guarantee - I paid $300 - he was the best dobe I have ever owned.
He died at 10 years -which is about average for a dobe.

So to summarize, In the final analysis, what matters is :

- the CONDITION of the kennel.
Is it clean, are the dogs healthy, are the sire and dam on site (ideal)

- does the breeder have proof of testing the PARENTS of your puppy for congenital defects.
What you care about is buying a dog that you HOPE will not be ill.
There is no ``guarantee`it wont - but a breeder that does regular testing is at least trying.
Of course, many breeders continue to breed defective dogs anyway.
So it doesnt mean much unless they will spay or neuter their own dogs.
I include skin allergies as a defect.
I have found only ONE GSD breeder in my area that has these high standards and she does not show - but sells GSD to police etc so sound dogs are required.

- Is the dog the type and structure and temperment you want.

- Does the breeder have references from other puppy buyers who you could call.

- Is the puppy provided with vet certificate (that wont guarantee they wont get sick, just that they were examined and were given a bill of good health at that time)

- Will the breeder help you if you run into problems (ie talk to you on the phone).


- Does she have a `bazillion` puppies - or 2 or 3 litters a year.


Good luck in whatever you decide.
Corren
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Zakari » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:36 pm

Yes this is normal.
8 Chi's are not that many as far as most Chi breeders are concerned.
many breeders breed multiple litters at a time in case their are problems, or pups need to a wetnurse.
I have heard from many they will only breed once a year to get the hard work over with in one shot.
Most breeders sell their older stock as pets if they do not fit in thier breeding program, or have not produced.
With breeding pups, and taking care of a kennel, it is better to sell them so they get more attention in a pet home.
Many breeders will have one or two old ones around as pets.


What would bother me is if she did not check hips, or test for other breed specific diseases.
I would prefer a breeder who asks me questions and cares about where the pup goes.
The pups should have a 2 week gurantee for communicable diseases, and 2 year gurantee on hips.
Patellas if you are lucky.
Zakari
 
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Was I Right To Judge This Breeder?

Postby Adamka » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:40 pm

Green flags:

Doesn't hesitate to let you meet the dogs

Puppies get vet checks

Puppies leave at 12 weeks

Very nice lady

Red flags:

Dogs are not walked much (well really would you ever try to walk eight Chihuahuas? still...)

Didn't ask much about you

Dogs are registered but not shown

No health certificate given (so how do you know they were really checked?)

About the retiring dams thing: Retiring dams is a good practice. Forcing a female to breed continually until she dies would be cruel. However, the breeder should keep or very occasionally adopt out as a pet a retired dam. Never, ever sell. Who would she sell to? Another breeder shouldn't want a retired dam. And NO good breeder every sells to pet stores.

I say you made the right choice. Don't feel bad about it. She may not be very bad breeder but you deserve the best dog and she doesn't have any.
Adamka
 
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